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Name of topic: Turn the Random down ffs
averageD00ml0rdMale

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Turn the Random down ffs
1. post - 2011.07.23. 07:17:58
So i attacked someone and got this result, what is the point of this game that random of such high proportion exists.

this is just a joke


XXXXXXX - level 57 Doomlord

Strength: 110 (+12)
Attack: 110 (+30)
Defense: 100 (+112)
Constitution: 100 (+16)
IQ: 150 (+31)
Magic: 100 (+19)
Thaumaturgy: 130 (+29)

D00ml0rd - level 50 Doomlord

Strength: 143 (+7)
Attack: 200 (+13)
Defense: 200 (+87)
Constitution: 100 (+11)
IQ: 200 (+65)
Magic: 100 (+54)
Thaumaturgy: 140 (+57)


Result

In this battle you have dealt a total of 807 damage and have taken 1848 damage.
This post was modified by D00ml0rd at 2011.07.23. 07:20:52
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much likedChaoticGeminiFemale

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
2. post - 2011.07.23. 07:26:43 (Reply to post #1 of D00ml0rd.)
It's more than just stats. Don't forget equipment, clan bonuses, and skills. I used to beat up players with stats much higher than mine because of my skills.
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much likedstekkos

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
3. post - 2011.07.23. 07:58:25 (Reply to post #2 of ChaoticGemini.)
Also, pets and luck.
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averageD00ml0rdMale

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
4. post - 2011.07.23. 08:27:13
my luck is 110 which isnt to bad for my level

my skills are 1133 and they are quality skills, very high skill level for my player level.

my stats are vastly superior my equip is all prem and other than my weap which is a magic user weapon vs the higher fighter level wep, they are the highest equip i can get with trade of 200

my pets do let me down ill give that one Stekkos, they are fairly new pets and still only good at humping legs. never the less thats unreal to lose and lose by that much based on stats, no crit hits either spell or weapon were landed so battle skills werent a major factor and my toughness is maxed so that doesnt factor either...

.
This post was modified by D00ml0rd at 2011.07.23. 08:30:17
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averageD00ml0rdMale

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
5. post - 2011.07.23. 08:32:29
actuall;y looking at battle report his toughness doesnt appear to be maxed so i actually had an extra round to fight....
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much likedstekkos

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
6. post - 2011.07.23. 08:51:18 (Reply to post #5 of D00ml0rd.)
I was looking into this myself a while back and relised it is not so random as it seems. Personally i beat every player i have at my range EVERYTIME. But it used to be different before, even if i had superior stats, until i realised a few other facts about this game. To make it simple, if you are talking about w1 just send me a PM with the name of your opponent to elaborate
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popularCruel01Male

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
7. post - 2011.07.23. 17:08:26
How about this fight I had in W4?

The guy had 41 Att and 95 Def (105 resting).
I had 130 and 176 respectively.
And yet, I would hit him only once or twice and he would hit me in more rounds or at least the same number of rounds. Then he would win with the spell.

How the hell is it possible that on a 41 x 176, he can hit me the same as I hit him on a 130 x 105?

I really don't like the facts that the formulas in DL are not disclosed.

Cruel.
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popularCruel01Male

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
8. post - 2011.07.24. 04:22:58
To add to the discussion.

Just lost a duel in W2 (second in a row to the same guy).
I have 332 more points in abis, even though he has more skills.
But one particular thing caught my attention.
I hit him 2x, with the following damages: 143 and 100.
My weapon has the following damage: 90-267. My strength is 218. His absorption is 29. His pets are lvl 50.
Tell me about random...

Cruel.
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averageEl NiƱoMale

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
9. post - 2011.07.24. 15:32:31 (Reply to post #7 of Cruel01.)
His chance to hit you was [b]X = ( ( [his attack] + [his level] ) - [your defense] ) + 50%*[/b] . Then, that chance were (41+his level+50)-176= his level - 85%. I don't think his level was more than 85, so then the attack's minimum chance were active, what's 20% (+/- the luck factor). So he had 20% chance to hit you and you had your chance about (130+yourlevel+50)-105, what's: your level+75%. I think it's more than the maximum chance, what's about 80% (as I remember), so then you had 80% chance to hit him (+/- the luck factor). If you had the much more luck, then he had 10% and you had 90% chance, but if he, then you had 70% and he had 30%. So if he had 30 or 50 more luck than you (I don't know how the luck works, the most likely is 1% modification per 3 luck difference or '% per 5 difference... that's all a guess, Milos didn't give the official information about that they just said that the max. modification is 10%). And that chance was calculated in each turn, and if you had a bad day, your 70% were not give you the hit just once or twice, and he dealt some hits with his 30%. That $ucks!


*That 50% is the chance to get a hit/deal a hit when your defense and your opponent's attack+level is the same, or reverse
since 3rd May, 2009...
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much likedstekkos

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
10. post - 2011.07.24. 18:25:35 (Reply to post #8 of Cruel01.)
Quote: Cruel01 - 2011.07.24. 04:22:58
To add to the discussion.

Just lost a duel in W2 (second in a row to the same guy).
I have 332 more points in abis, even though he has more skills.
But one particular thing caught my attention.
I hit him 2x, with the following damages: 143 and 100.
My weapon has the following damage: 90-267. My strength is 218. His absorption is 29. His pets are lvl 50.
Tell me about random...

Cruel.


Defence reduces the weapon damage as well. And depending on the base level of his pets at level 50 they could give 100+ absorption easy. So you are actually scoring quite good hits considering. And on your other post, when you say he has def 95 is it WITH items bonus?
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popularCruel01Male

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
11. post - 2011.07.25. 05:34:16
If Defense also reduces damage, then the advantage that Emeralds have becomes simply ridiculous. No point in having any other horde in the game.

Lost the third in a row to that guy who has 340 less abi points than me.

My stats:
Strength: 200 (+18)
Attack: 260 (+40)
Defense: 200 (+156)
Constitution: 160 (+31)
IQ: 230 (+26)
Magic: 160 (+14)
Thaumaturgy: 157 (+7)
Luck: 131

His stats:
Strength: 140 (+2)
Attack: 170 (+17)
Defense: 220 (+110)
Constitution: 90 (+12)
IQ: 201 (+59)
Magic: 75 (+48)
Thaumaturgy: 140 (+48)
Luck: 121

The battle:
Your opponent was resting. This will be a difficult fight! Your trained pets, a level 82 Renegade galetki, a level 76 Vyarg fighter, a level 69 Ogre and Easter bunny from hell, a level 66 easter wererabbit are fighting in this battle on your behalf. The trained pets of ???, a level 51 Kinetic morph, a level 51 Energy spirit, a level 51 Mindtoaster and a level 46 Mummy are assisting their master in this battle. As you see each other you begin to run.
Your lips move silently, forming the cataclysm incantation. (-205 SP). You deal 895 damage. Your opponent's pets lose 28 hit points.
You regenerate 12 hit points.??? casts a(n) cataclysm spell on you. He deals 1762 damage. Your pets lose 476 hit points.
You try a quick attack at the direction of your opponent. Your opponent parries. Renegade galetki, Vyarg fighter, Ogre and Easter bunny from hell are also leaping to your opponent. With 3 attacks they caused 137 damage.
You regenerate 12 hit points.
??? targets your torso with the Doomsblade. His hit has missed you! Kinetic morph, Energy spirit, Mindtoaster and Mummy are also leaping to you. With 4 attacks they caused 37 damage. Critical damage! Your pets lose 85 hit points.
Gripping your weapon you initiate a a devastating blow. Your weapon bounces harmlessly off the armor of ???. Renegade galetki, Vyarg fighter, Ogre and Easter bunny from hell are also attacking. With 4 attacks they caused 68 damage.
You regenerate 12 hit points.
??? targets your torso with the Doomsblade. His hit has missed you! Kinetic morph, Energy spirit, Mindtoaster and Mummy are attacking with a snarl. With 3 attacks they caused 114 damage. Critical damage! Your pets lose 85 hit points.
Gripping your weapon you initiate a a devastating blow. You miss your target! Renegade galetki, Vyarg fighter, Ogre and Easter bunny from hell attacks with a snarl. From 4 attacks, 100 damage!
You regenerate 12 hit points.
??? strikes you with Doomsblade snarling. You lean elegantly over from the hit. Kinetic morph, Energy spirit, Mindtoaster and Mummy are also leaping to you. From 4 attacks, 127 damage! Your pets lose 85 hit points.
You strike with your Vampiric dagger. Your opponent parries. Renegade galetki, Vyarg fighter, Ogre and Easter bunny from hell attacks with a snarl. With 4 attacks they caused 217 damage.
You regenerate 12 hit points.
??? strikes you with Doomsblade snarling. He strikes you for 94 damage. Your opponent drains soul-energy from you! (-7 soul-energy) Your pets lose 16 hit points. Kinetic morph, Energy spirit, Mindtoaster and Mummy are also attacking you. From 4 attacks, 92 damage! Your pets lose 85 hit points.
You try a quick attack at the direction of your opponent. You deal 50 damage. You drain soul-energy from your opponent! (+4 soul-energy) Your opponent's pets lose 1 hit points. Renegade galetki, Vyarg fighter, Ogre and Easter bunny from hell are also attacking. With 4 attacks they caused 47 damage.
You regenerate 12 hit points.
??? is rolling over then springs up to attack you from the side. His hit has missed you! Kinetic morph, Energy spirit, Mindtoaster and Mummy are also attacking. With 3 attacks they caused 139 damage. Critical damage! Your pets lose 85 hit points.
You take all your strength into the hit as you are swooping with your Vampiric dagger. Your opponent parries. Renegade galetki, Vyarg fighter, Ogre and Easter bunny from hell attacks with a snarl. By their 2 attacks they deal 39 damage.
You regenerate 12 hit points.
??? is rolling over then springs up to attack you from the side. You lean elegantly over from the hit. Kinetic morph, Energy spirit, Mindtoaster and Mummy are also leaping to you. With 3 attacks they caused 178 damage. Your pets lose 85 hit points.
In this battle you have dealt a total of 1553 damage and have taken 2543 damage.

Note that each one of us hits only once and I am attacking at 300 x 330 (considering 10% from rest on the whole stat and not only the base) while he is attacking at 187 x 356. And he does more damage than me His weapon has +22 av. damage, but my average strength is 38 higher, my pets have higher absorption and I am ruby, which in theory should grant me more damage.

Finally, he does 1,000 more spell damage with minimal advantage in stats.

Bottom line is: this game is made for the Emerald horde.

Cruel.
This post was modified by Cruel01 at 2011.07.25. 05:36:03
Score: 5
much likedstekkos

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
12. post - 2011.07.25. 06:29:10
Consider these points: His pets obviously have skills, yours do not. And they seem to be doing more damage on average than your pets. These 2 factors have nothing to do with him being emerald.

His horde helps with the marginal difference you have at IQ but also you cannot ignore the fact that regardless horde he has more of both due to item bonuses, so you are not actually compensating for any of his horde bonuses.

You complain about not hitting him with your high attack. Look at his defence: 330 total. Your total attack is 300. What do you expect????? And yes, defence does reduce damage, so you obviously need more strength. Btw, weapon base damage is much more effective that a few strength points more.

Stop making the same mistake most players here do: Emeralds do not have an unfair advantage, they just have an advantage to spell. Thats one of 7-8 combat rounds. You are ruby, crank up your gear and abilities towards that and you WILL see difference
This post was modified by stekkos at 2011.07.25. 06:29:28
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popularCruel01Male

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
13. post - 2011.07.25. 14:24:09 (Reply to post #12 of stekkos.)
Quote: stekkos - 2011.07.25. 06:29:10
Consider these points: His pets obviously have skills, yours do not. And they seem to be doing more damage on average than your pets. These 2 factors have nothing to do with him being emerald.

The damage from pets is almost the same. We can disregard this factor to explain the battle.

His horde helps with the marginal difference you have at IQ but also you cannot ignore the fact that regardless horde he has more of both due to item bonuses, so you are not actually compensating for any of his horde bonuses.

His IQ is better, but just by a fraction: 260 vs 256. His Thau also is better, but the discussion here is not that he shouldn't do more spell damage. He should, but not 1,000 more.

You complain about not hitting him with your high attack. Look at his defence: 330 total. Your total attack is 300. What do you expect????? And yes, defence does reduce damage, so you obviously need more strength. Btw, weapon base damage is much more effective that a few strength points more.

I was on a 300 vs 330 attacking position and I hit only 1 in 6. He was on 187 vs 356 attacking position and also hit 1 in 6. It means the formula presented below is not correct as it shows I should hit 80% and he should hit 20%. Apparently, there is bigger benefit for defense.
You say defense reduces damage, but I don't see it anywhere in the game description. It would be foolish from the programmers to add an extra feature to the stat and keep it as a secret.
Regarding weapon damage vs strength, you are mistaken. There is a multiplier to the Strength that should make it more effective than the weapon damage.

Stop making the same mistake most players here do: Emeralds do not have an unfair advantage, they just have an advantage to spell. Thats one of 7-8 combat rounds. You are ruby, crank up your gear and abilities towards that and you WILL see difference

They do have an unfair advantage. At least against Ruby because the extra damage from Ruby doesn't seem to work.
And specially when they can hit the same number of times with more than 100 points less in attack. Well, building a char with 1 less stat makes things much easier.
Regarding equipment, I have the best available.
Regarding stats, I already have 300 more than him.

Cruel.
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popularSbartMale

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
14. post - 2011.07.25. 21:22:03
There is no way to say from 6 (or 12) attacks if the formula is right or not. Random is random, and you might hit that particular opponent 6 times out of 6 or miss him with all 6 attacks. Neither of these results means that the formula is wrong.
One thing I miss in your comparison is clan building bonuses - If you are attacking who I think you are, these bonuses are not insignificant.

About the eternal discussion on Emerald vs Ruby; It is a give and take. Maybe Emerald players are easier to develop, but when you start getting significant Soul Drain you want more Attack to capitalize on it. And I can only imagine that the Ruby bonus is actually more valuable at that point than on low levels.

About the "do defence also lower damage?" I agree that it is silly if there are extra stuff in the game that we are not told and are very hard to detect (or find out).
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popularCruel01Male

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
15. post - 2011.07.26. 06:11:24 (Reply to post #14 of Sbart.)
Quote: Sbart - 2011.07.25. 21:22:03
There is no way to say from 6 (or 12) attacks if the formula is right or not. Random is random, and you might hit that particular opponent 6 times out of 6 or miss him with all 6 attacks. Neither of these results means that the formula is wrong.
One thing I miss in your comparison is clan building bonuses - If you are attacking who I think you are, these bonuses are not insignificant.

Even considering the clan buildings, I would still be at 80% considering the given formula (X=Att+Lvl-Def+50%). And with 80%, missing 5 out of 6 is almost impossible (0.15%). Missing 6 out of 6 as you suggest occurs 0.01% of the times.


About the eternal discussion on Emerald vs Ruby; It is a give and take. Maybe Emerald players are easier to develop, but when you start getting significant Soul Drain you want more Attack to capitalize on it. And I can only imagine that the Ruby bonus is actually more valuable at that point than on low levels.

Soul Drain favors Rubies. But you only drain when you hit and developing defense is easier than developing attack because armor and shield grant huge bonuses to defense. I think it is the opposite of what you said. Ruby has an advantage in the beginning. But as soon as spells become out of control, Emerald rules.
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popularSbartMale

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
16. post - 2011.07.26. 10:16:06 (Reply to post #15 of Cruel01.)
Quote: Cruel01 - 2011.07.26. 06:11:24

Even considering the clan buildings, I would still be at 80% considering the given formula (X=Att+Lvl-Def+50%). And with 80%, missing 5 out of 6 is almost impossible (0.15%). Missing 6 out of 6 as you suggest occurs 0.01% of the times.


But still possible, which is why you cannot judge the validity of the formula with such a small statistical sample. I understand that it sucks, but it doesn't mean that the formula is wrong.


Soul Drain favors Rubies. But you only drain when you hit and developing defense is easier than developing attack because armor and shield grant huge bonuses to defense. I think it is the opposite of what you said. Ruby has an advantage in the beginning. But as soon as spells become out of control, Emerald rules.


Doesn't Ruby clan hit more often also (I know this is almost impossible to determine, but that is what the description says)? Combined with more damage and the fact that a Ruby Doomlord probably have better Attack, you should get higher yields from Soul Drain.
But I do agree that the spell does get a bit out of control. Looking at how I do damage myself, it looks like the developers would want us to actually do quite a lot of damage to each other with every duel - Emerald by spell and others by attacks. But since people develop Con very little and all other abilities more, this doesn't happen and the spell gets "out of control". No idea of what to do about it really.
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much likedstekkos

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Re: Turn the Random down ffs
17. post - 2011.07.26. 13:16:00
Personally i do much more damage with my melee than spell. I am diamond so no horde bonuses apply. Examples:

The cosmic starstrike spell flows from your hands. (-285 SP). You deal 3496 damage. Critical damage!
In this battle you have dealt a total of 9185 damage and have taken 46 damage.
So 5689 after spell

You cast a(n) cosmic starstrike spell while running. (-285 SP). You deal 3681 damage. Critical damage!
In this battle you have dealt a total of 10152 damage and have taken 409 damage.
6471 damage after spell

I know the example duels are against much weaker players but my point here is that melee combat and pets can give you a lot more damage than spell. Look at it this way: Without no spell at all i could win against an emerald that has high IQ, THAMA and DEF but has neglected all other abilities.

But also those who think that high IQ is the only way to compensate, look at these examples:
I used the arena of my clan to attack the top emerald in w1. This is what happened:

His IQ= 470 (+103) =573 (+emerald bonus) My IQ= 348 (+105)= 453

You deal 1800 damage. The spell affects your opponent: -14 Attack, -14 Critical damage. You drain soul-energy from your opponent! (+54 soul-energy) Your opponent's pets lose 6 hit points.


Notice that my spell hit FULLY, meaning his extremely higher IQ did not block me. Why? My luck= 413 His luck= 313 So if i had more IQ, i could even block his spell, although abilities and horde seem to make this impossible. Just one of the many ways you can turn things around even when facing extremely powerfull spell users.
This post was modified by stekkos at 2011.07.26. 13:24:56
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