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Name of topic: Any Reason I Should Stay?
averageViridel

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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
21. post - 2011.02.02. 19:09:54 (Reply to post #14 of ImLittleJon.)
Quote: ImLittleJon - 2011.02.02. 00:09:21
Once upon a time, there was a game with no end. It was a good game, and in the beginning, everyone was happy. As new players found the game, however, they were unhappy. They saw how powerful were the players who had been there longer, and they knew they could never compete. So the admins looked down from on high, and they said unto the masses, "We will launch a new world." And they did. Then, all the newer players moved to the new world, where they could start on an even footing, and for a while, everyone was happy again. But then the cycle repeated, and a third world was opened, then a fourth, then a fifth. Meanwhile, on the older worlds, players gradually dropped out, as they got bored, had kids, changed jobs, and so forth. No new players could replace them, and slowly the game felt more and more dead, leading to more players dropping out. Until one day, someone said, "Hey guys, I found this new game, let's all go there."

In my experience, that is the end game for all games without a built in end game. It's just a question of how long it takes before the death spiral kicks in. If, on the other hand, there is some defined limit, after which the whole world starts over, you might lose some players at reset time, but that would be more than made up for by the newer players you'd keep because they knew they'd have an opportunity to compete to be one of the leaders, or to try a new strategy.


This is so dead on, I never could have phrased it better. New players coming in feel defeated before they start. Long time high-level players feel bored. It's fine for the middle group that wants to meander along but eventually those players will drop due to time, cost or boredom. The world will die. Nothing was accomplished.

Players who quit out of boredom are likely lost forever - Why would you start again when you know exactly what will happen every step along the way? Also, would you ever refer someone to the game knowing that you quit out of boredom?

This is why an end-game is so essential - it creates an incentive to KEEP playing. It lets you show that you learned something - got better at the game. It puts everyone in the same boat. Server restarts can be announced a month in advance - nobody should have the excuse of starting behind... And if they do, be part of a good Clan, and the disparity is removed - you can still be a valuable asset to a Clan, even if you start late.

--------------------------------------------------------

I've mentioned Travian before - it's a formula that works. Server is launched, ~15,000 join in the first two weeks. About 7 months later, end-game begins, ~5000 players remain (in Travian, you can get legitimately killed off, but you have to really suck, or really piss a lot of people off). End-Game lasts about 2 months, at which time about 2000 players remain (since player eradication increases, and people tend to drop out of they are not part of a Wonder-Building Alliance). 3 months later, that server Resets.

The re-join rate is huge. The referral rate is huge. There is a PURPOSE to the game.

How big is Travian? Here is a list of the domains that they have dedicated servers in:
.com .net .comx (speed server)
.ba .bg .cz .de .dk .ee .fi .fr .gr .hr .hu .il .it .lt .lv .nl .no .pl .pt .ro .rs .ru .se .si .sk .tr .ua .uk
.ar .br .cl .mx .us
.au .nz
.eg .ma .za
11 domains in Asia, 6 in the Middle East (don't feel like typing more)

SMALL European domains average about 18,000 players
Czech servers - 42k, Germany - 47k, France 77730 ACTIVE players (104k registered), Romania - 26k, Spain - 59k
Hungarian Servers 33673 Active players! (40k registered) - about 15% are active online at this very moment!!! (and the server logs you out after 20 minutes if you are inactive, so that's 4000 players doing something RIGHT NOW)

Etcetera. You get the point.

Fact is, Travian has a system that has more players, attracts more players, retains more players. The game itself is NOT more fun! But it's constructed far better. It has a more loyal community. It has Administration dedicated to the forums. It has PURPOSE to the game - and that's what keeps players coming back. Remember, not a single player listed in the hundreds of thousands above has been registered for more than 9 months.

It is that simple. Saying that this system is better is utter lunacy. The number of players, and especially the number of active players make it absolutely clear what the better system is.

And, of course, we have yet to hear from a Moderator or Admin on this topic. I just don't get how a company can run this way.
This post was modified by Viridel at 2011.02.02. 19:15:47
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much likedPhalanxii

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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
22. post - 2011.02.03. 15:03:20
The admins may not be very talkative, only seemingly making an appearance when directly requested, perhaps due to the language barrier and difficulty of communication.

So, in order to make your voice heard, you need something solid, a poll, petition, ideas, suggestions, improvements.

Make it concise, relevant, to the point, direct, whatever. Make it clear what you want. Your long post contained a few relevant points but I can guarantee an admin will not want to read it all. It sounds more like a rant, and frustration never gets anyone anywhere.

Creating an end game is a massive task, requiring lots of new programming and a lot of restructuring the game itself. You should start with a poll and see how many people want an end game of some sort or another. If the results are a unanimous yes, follow it up with a second poll asking how long the game should last (triggered when first person reaches level 50? 100? 200?). If there is a clear winner, create a new poll and diverge into different types of end game (new clan building, a final battle with the enemy, etc) and continue doing so until you have a solid, presentable idea that has lots of weight behind it.

What you are suggesting goes against a core idea behind the game (never ending) so I would expect it to fall at the first hurdle, but you can always try. I think there is a speed server on the Hungarian servers which ends, hitting certain objectives (eg. first clan to 50 epics or something), so you could simply request we get that on the international servers (and suggest a few adjustments if you wish).

Either way, if you want peoples opinions on an end game, I think a new topic in the suggestions part of the forum should be made. Here, the opinions will be even more well hidden.
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averageViridel

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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
23. post - 2011.02.03. 23:57:44 (Reply to post #22 of Phalanxii.)
The point of my post wasn't to get the Admins to do anything.

a) They would have to read it
b) They would have to care

Neither is likely.

The purpose of the post was to illustrate that this game is doomed to perpetual failure because no matter how much someone loves the game, in the end, there is no competition. Every player will get more and more lonely until it becomes a single-player game. There is no reason to sign up for multiple worlds, because there is no new challenge. In the end, every single player is going to quit the game at some point - and when that happens, they probably will never come back.

The Admins want to make this a socially-driven game (where you interact amongst yourselves, not for an end purpose), but don't give any social tools (chat, mass mail, interactive forums). It's not a competitive game, yet that's where all the tools lie (ways to get bigger and stronger). It simply cannot be a long-term success because the philosophy of the game was misaligned with the structure that was built.
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averageD00ml0rdMale

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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
24. post - 2011.02.04. 01:15:21
The problem with an end game is how do you deal with the investemnt that people have made in it, take Ardent for example, clearly the best player in w2 but has obviously spent alot of money to get there, i realise others also have made a significant investement so how do these players get rewarded for the end game?

creating an end game that nullifies that entire investemnt would cause alot of complaints and rightly so considering this woul dhave to be introduced after the fact.

if we can find a way out of that birds nest then im sure siggestions woul dbe considered, as far as suggestions i know it seems that this board isnt maintained by admin as well as it could b ut in fairness the few times i have pm'd Mikklos or Keithos ive got responses, maybe not same day but they do arrive, so some of these things that we feel are more important than a quiz error could easily be pmd to mikklos voa the board system and solutions worked thru with them that way?
This post was modified by D00ml0rd at 2011.02.04. 01:16:22
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much likedstekkos

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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
25. post - 2011.02.04. 06:02:05 (Reply to post #23 of Viridel.)
Quote: Viridel - 2011.02.03. 23:57:44
The point of my post wasn't to get the Admins to do anything.

a) They would have to read it
b) They would have to care

Neither is likely.

The purpose of the post was to illustrate that this game is doomed to perpetual failure because no matter how much someone loves the game, in the end, there is no competition. Every player will get more and more lonely until it becomes a single-player game. There is no reason to sign up for multiple worlds, because there is no new challenge. In the end, every single player is going to quit the game at some point - and when that happens, they probably will never come back.

The Admins want to make this a socially-driven game (where you interact amongst yourselves, not for an end purpose), but don't give any social tools (chat, mass mail, interactive forums). It's not a competitive game, yet that's where all the tools lie (ways to get bigger and stronger). It simply cannot be a long-term success because the philosophy of the game was misaligned with the structure that was built.


I am sorry to say this but Viridel, you just complain for the sake of it. The game is at it is, it does not end. 2 possibilities: you like it and play, you dislike it and leave. Neither decision is wrong, is personal choice. If the admins would have accepted to grand you the wish for an endgame it would ruin it for me (and i am sure a lot others) who like this game without an end. It is the only browser game that kept me playing, i hated the reset/start over of others i tried. But i did not go in the forums of those games and complain. I quit. Why try and ruin the fun the others had because i did not like it? Your suggestions so far were a very welcome addition, this is not a suggestion though. Is as if you are trying to create a game fiting you. Games (from sports to board ganes) are ment to be played by those you enjoy them AS THEY ARE!
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averageViridel

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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
26. post - 2011.02.04. 06:26:46 (Reply to post #25 of stekkos.)
Quote: stekkos - 2011.02.04. 06:02:05
I am sorry to say this but Viridel, you just complain for the sake of it. The game is at it is, it does not end. 2 possibilities: you like it and play, you dislike it and leave. Neither decision is wrong, is personal choice. If the admins would have accepted to grand you the wish for an endgame it would ruin it for me (and i am sure a lot others) who like this game without an end. It is the only browser game that kept me playing, i hated the reset/start over of others i tried. But i did not go in the forums of those games and complain. I quit. Why try and ruin the fun the others had because i did not like it? Your suggestions so far were a very welcome addition, this is not a suggestion though. Is as if you are trying to create a game fiting you. Games (from sports to board ganes) are ment to be played by those you enjoy them AS THEY ARE!


Stekkos, you have my respect, but this is a steaming pile. I am NOT complaining. I am NOT suggesting the game change to accommodate me. I have no delusions that my opinion carries that much (or any) weight!

All I am saying is that this game will NEVER be more than a niche market. NEVER have more than (comparatively) few highly active users. The game will simply not excel without a more structured approach.

For those whom like the open-ended play, this is an excellent game for you. But worlds will dry up and you will be "forced" to quit no differently than at a fixed end-game point. No matter what, any investment in the game is for the enjoyment of the game at that specific period of time.

And with that said, this will be my last post on the Forum. I will stay active, for the benefit of my Clan, until such time as I see no purpose in continuing - be that a day, week, month or year.
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averageauntiggy

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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
27. post - 2011.02.04. 19:34:29
I don't even read the story. I just look for links to satisfy quests. I agree the quiz is boring and I no longer write quiz questions as they are almost always ambiguous. The way opponents are matched sucks. On W1 I quit paying and quit that character and started over because it got to the point I couldn't beat anyone because instead of matching people by abilities and skills they are matched by levels. When you have someone 6 levels higher coming at you constantly you can not get anywhere. Our clan was being farmed constantly by a much better clan and we couldn't grow - as a clan or individually. The clan disbanded and several of those members no longer play the game. On any world. In other words they were fed up and quit the game entirely! I've been having problems and can't get a response from admins. Now I have another issue with trying to puchase some stones and can't get a response.
Btw - this is the first game like this I've ever played so I had no clue what I was doing. I read what I could find and went from there. I started out as a premium player. By the time I got up to where I was when I quit I had invested a lot of time and money into the game. Some of you might say there is no reason you couldn't be competitive. Usually those people have a lot more experience playing these games so of course they will say that. My goal isn't trying to be the best, it's just trying to stay competitive enough to be able to keep growing my character so I can continue playing. And as with any game on the internet - admins only care about the money, but I question that as I said above - I'm not able to purchase stones - the link isn't working - and I can't get a response from them. Of course you know they won't care if you quit or are unhappy because of all the number of new players and the current players that will remain.
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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
28. post - 2011.02.04. 21:58:13
auntiggy, i started this game without any clue like you. I actually joined for the quiz so the rest were secondary to me. Most of the players then were Hungarian and knew the game. I got started, made mistakes, asked around, learned from them and every time something was not going well i kept trying to find what was it and changed it. Now i am as good a player as any, beating players 7-8 levels higher than me (so level has nothing to do if you will win or not, it is skills and abilities). I find the game enjoyable, i always have goals and i never feel this is going nowhere. Example: I got beaten month after month for the championship for more than a year. I tried different approach every month, saw what went wrong and refined it. At last today i have a champion medal. I do not feel i lost 15 championships. I feel i got 15 months of training to start wining. And i say it without a doubt: ANY player can go from punching bag to dominating.
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much likedPhalanxii

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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
29. post - 2011.02.06. 01:18:12
Quote: stekkos - 2011.02.04. 21:58:13
And i say it without a doubt: ANY player can go from punching bag to dominating.


I disagree. If player a gets to spectral manipulation 100 10 days before player b, player a has 10 days extra SE than player b. If both players then play a perfect game, player a will always have the upper hand. Of course, there is no such thing as a perfect game, you just have to play better in order to catch up. Yes, there are ways to play better but sometimes you just hit a limit. It is incredibly demoralizing when the gap between you and your opponent increases, perhaps Viridel is simply experiencing that and see's no way out.
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much likedstekkos

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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
30. post - 2011.02.06. 05:49:04 (Reply to post #29 of Phalanxii.)
Unless Viridel posts again, i will not comment on his thoughts since he said he will not use the forums anymore. I will not make a monologue. But as my comment goes, i was behind in many ways, as dueler and hunter, since i joined very early, 20 days after W1 started. Most players at that point were from Hungary and knew the game. So i was developing between people with clear knowleadge of what will come, though i didnt. I was getting beaten at duels, my skills were going the wrong way (took me A LOT time to realise elementary fusion and spectral should be maxed ASAP). Most of them had already maxed those 2 skills. But after asking, trial and error and various stradegies, now i even beat the migthy Destiny a few times in duel (And i say this with the outmost respect to him, he is by far the best dueler in my range). Before he was to me what an epic monster is to a builder.

So i stand by my opinion because i was one of the players you mentioned in your example, even worse than 10 ponts of spectral. Anyone can find the way in this game to, at worst senario, become a challenge to the top fighters of his range. If not the top. If any of you wants more details on how is possible with him personally, i would be happy to assist
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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
31. post - 2011.02.06. 08:59:35 (Reply to post #30 of stekkos.)
Well said~

*proud*
Doomlord forum moderator at your service.
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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
32. post - 2011.02.08. 10:29:33
Although I don't come often to the forum, I have to comment this.

[quote]Name: Viridel (average)
Posts: 795
Posts with a score: 115
Registered: 2009.08.04. 17:32:15
Last activity: Yesterday, 20:42:03[/quote]

Looks like Viridiel you are playing this game since 1.5 years, and you never stopped complaining meanwhile
I don't know if this means that you are an agent of a competing game or simply a frustrated individual, but one thing is for sure: you are addicted to this game very much.
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much likedLydonB

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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
33. post - 2011.02.08. 20:08:15
It also shows that he cares about this game; in whatever context he explains himself. Yes he's harsh and goes straight to the point without "waxing up" anybody, yet you have to admit that he is usually more right than wrong.

If something is wrong and someone tries to sugarcoat it; that person will actually be damaging the game.
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averageD00ml0rdMale

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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
34. post - 2011.02.08. 20:23:13
yea id like to see him back on the forum

hes always one of the first peoples posts i check out when i login

he certain ly makes the board very interesting ad it doesnt seem same without him:)
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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
35. post - 2011.02.09. 06:34:18
I most certainly agree to that. If he would be a bit less aggressive he would make the best sugestion posts in this forum.
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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
36. post - 2011.02.09. 16:04:07 (Reply to post #35 of stekkos.)
I kinda like his personality. I think I said enough.
Doomlord forum moderator at your service.
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averageViridel

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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
37. post - 2011.02.26. 05:48:59
Quote: Miklos - 2011.02.25. 14:17:51
You questions is, why we do not implement Viridiel's suggestions on the quiz evaluation system.

Well, most of these suggestion are unnecessary complications, and are based on the assumption that the current quiz admins are inadequate for this job. This assumption in itself is quite insulting. You should be aware that Viridiel from the very first moment is contiinually insulting admins, often with an intolerable tone, whenever one of his questions are rejected (rightfully, I have to confirm).


And with that, Miklos, and others who strive to maintain the status quo (absentee Admins) - thinking that your game is perfect; in spite of MANY players telling you otherwise, and a Quiz thread now approaching five thousand - you're right... Your system is obviously perfect. We humble peons bow to your obvious perfection.

As for insulting admins, you have obviously had someone tell you to write this, as I have no belief that you actually read the forums - as you have said yourself in the past. If you would just do your damn job as far as customer service goes, most problems wouldn't be here. It's obviously not a language issue, as your English was more than capable in insulting me - someone who used to care about the improvement of this game - sorry for being the enemy.

As for my questions, when they do eventually pass, they usually range in the 70% correct range. So please define "rightfully". In addition, since you would have to read the forum in order to see what questions I am complaining about, and you don't read the forum, I would suggest you use your telepathic divinity for more productive purposes.

Beyond that, I haven't posted in three weeks. I stop posting, and you choose this time to slander me publicly, on a topic that has been effectively dead for multiple months, against someone who has said nothing for almost a month? This is the quality of leadership I've been referring to - completely out of touch with what is going on.

But enough banter.

a) I'm outta here

b) Fuck you


Re-order as you see fit.

And this post better not be edited, since you've been clear about it not being legal in your country to edit the forums or questions!
This post was modified by Viridel at 2011.02.26. 06:01:16
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averageRaggidmanMale

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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
38. post - 2011.02.26. 13:38:34
Back to serious comment - Viridel was a valued member of my clan and I am sad he has left as I like him personally - i guess he just got upset and I hope one day to meet him again if not here then in another game perhaps

My feeling is that there are many aspects of THIS game that are truly suited to an open world MMORPG - the storyline itself is way better than you find in WOW for example.

Legend
Rofl at self because now I have to contradict self - I am English born and bred and I speak English naturally, added to this I have been an editor, web designer, writer, artist and composer = I have been working towards creation of own games eventually perhaps? who knows - BUT the thing is that the basic standard of spelling and grammar are often so low in the Legend scenarios that they kill immersion for me stone dead.

The Quiz
The same goes for that quiz - under this id I have had several 'questions' accepted and response has generally been sensible. However under another id I have had a whole string of 'questions' rejected ... which would be fine but when I am told that a question is rejected for a spelling mistake when there is none i just feel that my time has been wasted

What makes that even worse is that I see the overwhelming majority of quiz questions are not only full of very obvious spelling mistakes as well as sometimes having no correct answer ... what we arrive at is farce

The only way for me to deal with duellers is to accept them as a necessary if irrelevant intrusion - some folks are never so happy as when they feel they have a real live victim with feelings that can be hurt - too bad guys you missed me because I don't take this game that seriously - other folks just don't care as all that matters to them is competing.

A S0LUTION - reworking an aspect of the game
Frankly I prefer competing vs challenging NPCs but here a combat has no suspense and little skill ... there is no way to CHOOSE an NPC target for example ... that is a big gap in the game. iF YOU consider ADDing IN A revolving/changing CHOICE OF TARGETS along with a suitable narrative that might go a long way to making hunting more meaningful. So the hunting down process might take the place of the myultiple quiz questions etc ... and give more SE per kill or something

That would take a fair bit of work i know - but designing can be fun too

And tbh a lot of folks will say " I like the quiz idea, but they have not experienced it and the quiz is mostly about stuff not related to doomlord and so misses adding involvement with the game itself

all the best folks
raggidman
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much likedMiklosMale
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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
39. post - 2011.02.26. 15:44:21
I never said that the game is perfect... Every game can be improved for an eternity. My job is to spot good suggestions and have them implemented. Unfortunately, it is downright impossible to implement every suggestion, and this leads to that people whose suggestions are not implemented, will feel neglected and frustrated. I really can't help about that, it works this way in every game, the speed of programming can never match the imagination power of thousands of players.
And going personal and insulting really doesn't help to get your suggestions impleneted...
And if you trashtalk, your post gets edited or even deleted, even if the rest of your post was valuable.

And yes, I already admitted I can't read all the forum - because that's not my job, I am the head designer of several games and that in itself gives me 12-14 hrs work a day. Still, whenever I can, I come here, but your forum admin is Kethios, he does read the forum, and be assured if there is some important issue he will let us know.

Raggidman - I am completely aware that the English of the Legend is not as perfect as it should be. When it was translated, it was done by a very experienced translator, and it was corrected by another - but their native language was not English, so it couldn't be perfect. We have much more text in our games like other games, so we have a much more difficult time of getting them translated, and translated right. If you think you could help us somehow in correcting texts, please drop us an email at info doomlord net and we will work out the details.

About NPCs, we have several out there, like dimension doors, epics, entities, and the ones in the occassional events, like the xeno. Also, the crystal clan is actually a horde of NPCs. Would you like more? Yes, there is not much tactics in the fight itself, but there is in the way you develop your character!
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Re: Any Reason I Should Stay?
40. post - 2011.02.27. 05:12:17
Face it Viridel, you deleted your char because you couldn't handle all the attacks from me ..... That was just revenge for forcing me answer all your stupid baseball questions! Good luck IRL.
it figures ....
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