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Name of topic: Xeno wars
likedKethiosMale
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Re: Xeno wars
61. post - 2011.01.14. 11:17:43 (Reply to post #47 of Cruel01.)
Quote: Cruel01 - 2011.01.13. 16:21:00

Regarding the medal, why not just define the + amount and let the player choose which skill he wants to increase. If it is +10, the player will opt +10 of whatever skill he wants. This would be a one-time choice though. No regret option.


This is something that I find useful. I think it could be done.
As a sidenote: medals don't give high amount of +% and probably give the + on a certain few skills.
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likedKethiosMale
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Re: Xeno wars
62. post - 2011.01.14. 11:33:52 (Reply to post #52 of Viridel.)
Quote: Viridel - 2011.01.13. 21:44:28

The issue is that ManaConstruction counts the same whether the player has 10,000 SP and ManaCon level 50 - or 3000 SP and ManaCon level 1. The player with the higher totals has obviously invested far more to get the attribute & skill that high. Meanwhile a player who has invested in attacking attributes instead will be more successful on the attacking side, and in spite of a marginal (one skill level) investment in ManaCon, stands to receive the EXACT same benefit as someone who has invested FAR more on the Building side.


I was making maths and I ended up on this:

[event_start]=Option_1: The 1st duel/building determines further event play. Who fights first will not be allowed to use manacon, but will be allowed to build from SE.
[event_start]=Option_2:Who builds with manacon will lose the option to fight the creatures only having the manacon/build from SE options left.

I'd like you to post your thoughts about this before I present this towards the admin staff. Please PM me here, or send an e-mail.


Corrections that need to be made:
ManaCon has a point-to-point value based on the actual Build it provides - something to the effect of Player Level *500 = 1 Build Point
SE Building needs to have a precise calculation - something to the effect of Player Level *200 = 1 Build Point
Point fractions are allowed in the running total (like 30.55 Build Points)
Every Player Level *2500 of total building, the player gets the same potion as in the Attacking portion of the event
At ManaCon L30 - ManaConstruction can be used twice per day, once into the Clan, once into an event*
*this allows a Clan-oriented player to participate in the event, but not hurt the Clan by doing so - after all, the Clan does not suffer if a attacking-oriented player participates in the Attacking portion of the event, so why should it suffer if a player participates in the Build portion?


This will give every player - regardless of how they are designed - a viable opportunity to participate to their full potential.


About the 2 manacon/day. If we want to keep balance, there needs to be a "You arleady built from Soul Energy today" text if a player with lvl 30 manacon tries to use their 2nd option in the event panel. This would keep your suggestion working and prevent players gaining advantage. I know right?
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likedKethiosMale
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Re: Xeno wars
63. post - 2011.01.14. 11:35:27 (Reply to post #59 of LydonB.)
Quote: LydonB - 2011.01.14. 10:51:04
Think about the Zarknod event: If you got all three relics, would you participate as much if it ever came around again?



The relics would most definitely be different. With a chance to acquire the missed ones during the first phase.


Note, that the +ability points are also some kind of reward so yes, I would.
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averageViridel

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Re: Xeno wars
64. post - 2011.01.17. 05:55:43 (Reply to post #62 of Kethios.)
Quote: Kethios - 2011.01.14. 11:33:52
Quote: Viridel - 2011.01.13. 21:44:28

The issue is that ManaConstruction counts the same whether the player has 10,000 SP and ManaCon level 50 - or 3000 SP and ManaCon level 1. The player with the higher totals has obviously invested far more to get the attribute & skill that high. Meanwhile a player who has invested in attacking attributes instead will be more successful on the attacking side, and in spite of a marginal (one skill level) investment in ManaCon, stands to receive the EXACT same benefit as someone who has invested FAR more on the Building side.


I was making maths and I ended up on this:

[event_start]=Option_1: The 1st duel/building determines further event play. Who fights first will not be allowed to use manacon, but will be allowed to build from SE.
[event_start]=Option_2:Who builds with manacon will lose the option to fight the creatures only having the manacon/build from SE options left.


It's an interesting concept, but I see three "failings":
1) There will likely be far more attackers than builders, and with the pass/fail approach, that means a lot of players may get absolutely nothing.
2) It doesn't address the loss of ManaCon to the Clan / how ManaCon will be utilized in value.
3) It punishes players who have built characters legitimately useful in both categories.
4) It reduces the potential winners of each Top10 list to those who pick that half of the event to start in.

Solutions:
a) When a Xeno is defeated at that level, Building opens up for ALL players at that level range (or vice versa, as the case may be). The Xeno must be defeated in both Attack AND Build before the players can move up/down to the next level
b) When ManaCon is L30, it can be used twice per day (but only once for the Clan) - simplest & best solution / Value, as said previously, Level*500 = 1 Build point.
c) With the "other half opening up" as per solution A, this somewhat remedies itself, but you could easily be in a situation where the "first half" of the creature takes so long to kill, there is no time to earn the 2nd half reward (or it is prohibitively expensive using SE only).
d) This may not necessarily be all-bad. However, a great blended character where the player is really dedicated to the event, still can't feasibly get on both lists, which is a little unfair to take away even the possibility.
It's an interesting idea, and one I would support, provided a viable opportunity exists for both halves, and the Clans don't get screwed.


Corrections that need to be made:
ManaCon has a point-to-point value based on the actual Build it provides - something to the effect of Player Level *500 = 1 Build Point
SE Building needs to have a precise calculation - something to the effect of Player Level *200 = 1 Build Point
Point fractions are allowed in the running total (like 30.55 Build Points)
Every Player Level *2500 of total building, the player gets the same potion as in the Attacking portion of the event
At ManaCon L30 - ManaConstruction can be used twice per day, once into the Clan, once into an event*
*this allows a Clan-oriented player to participate in the event, but not hurt the Clan by doing so - after all, the Clan does not suffer if a attacking-oriented player participates in the Attacking portion of the event, so why should it suffer if a player participates in the Build portion?


This will give every player - regardless of how they are designed - a viable opportunity to participate to their full potential.


About the 2 manacon/day. If we want to keep balance, there needs to be a "You arleady built from Soul Energy today" text if a player with lvl 30 manacon tries to use their 2nd option in the event panel. This would keep your suggestion working and prevent players gaining advantage. I know right?


Not sure what you're saying, as you mention both ManaCon and SE in the same sentence as "second ManaCon". To simplify it, once you use it for the Clan, "Build with Spell Points" disappears from the Clan Building options (same as it currently does), however the option still exists in the Event panel - also once per day, of course. Unless you're suggesting that if you use ManaCon, you canNOT build with SE as well... Which would be a bad idea, since the Top10 Lists would basically be invalidated since you're limiting possible contributions.
This post was modified by Viridel at 2011.01.17. 06:01:04
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likedKethiosMale
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Re: Xeno wars
65. post - 2011.01.17. 09:54:18 (Reply to post #64 of Viridel.)
I wanted to write:

"You aready built from Spell points today".
So yes, the option in the clan panel either disappears or players simply get this message only allowing them to use their "second" manacon in the event panel.
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Re: Xeno wars
66. post - 2011.01.17. 11:42:56 (Reply to post #60 of Sbart.)
I can build as many times as I like per day from SE <--- Is this true? In the original preview of the event I understood it as once per day from SE, but the post above can be read as if I can build as many times per day as i want from SE


Yes, you can build as many times as you like per day from SE.

The number of the build points from SE is not limited.
You can build once a day with mancons.
This post was modified by Random at 2011.01.17. 12:13:11
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popularCruel01Male

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Re: Xeno wars
67. post - 2011.01.17. 16:30:46
I fully disagree with the second manacon for the event. If this is done, you will be automatically giving the victory for whoever has manacon lvl 30 or over. Therefore, it won't be an event.
As I have already said, compromise is required! I am aware that if I want to stay in the top 10, I will need to evolve in lvl much faster than what I would like to. This is my compromise and I am thinking if it is worth. Just giving builders the option not to change anything in their strategy and still come up with an easy victory makes no sense to me.

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Re: Xeno wars
68. post - 2011.01.17. 19:19:00 (Reply to post #67 of Cruel01.)
Quote: Cruel01 - 2011.01.17. 16:30:46
I fully disagree with the second manacon for the event. If this is done, you will be automatically giving the victory for whoever has manacon lvl 30 or over. Therefore, it won't be an event.
As I have already said, compromise is required! I am aware that if I want to stay in the top 10, I will need to evolve in lvl much faster than what I would like to. This is my compromise and I am thinking if it is worth. Just giving builders the option not to change anything in their strategy and still come up with an easy victory makes no sense to me.

Cruel.


I see how having Mana-con 30+ will give you an advantage in the top 10 Building, but it is the same kind of advantage you would get in the Top 10 Fights from having a high Elementary Fusion/Shape reality (extra AP/DP) or higher stats (so that you win more fights).

Having said that, I still think that the easiest way is to either have it as proposed or removing Mana-con from the event.

Why keep it as proposed? The original proposal stated that you could get 1 Building point/day from Building with SE and 1/day building with Mana-con. This is no longer the case, since we will be able to build as many times as we want from SE/day (and get 1 Build point per X SE).
So if I have the potential to build 50000SE with Mana-con and one Build point costs 5000 SE, I could build 10 times in the Event and use my Mana-con in a Clan building. Using Mana-con in the Event only gives me 1 more Build point, so why use it?

Question: I will have to use X SE to get 1 Build point. Does my Building skill affect this amount?
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popularCruel01Male

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Re: Xeno wars
69. post - 2011.01.17. 20:39:46
What I am saying is that it is expected that whoever has more manacon will have an advantage in the event (considering we are able to come up with a solution that awards them in terms of "building points", which I think is fair). The point is: Will they be willing to sacrifice the daily building in the clan for the event? This will be up to them to decide.
In my view, the best solution for the building competition is the following:
- Points from manacon - 1 point for every X * level built - Can be used only once a day. Player must choose among building for the clan or the event.
- Points from SE - 1 point for every X * level built - Unlimited usages.

I also agree that I will have an advantage because I will win more fights, but the point I am trying to make is that, if I want to be top 10 in the competition, I will actually have to accept a lower SE/XP ratio, which is a sacrifice to my strategy.

In summary, winning the event will require a sacrifice from most people (only the very well balanced and strong players might be able to win just by keeping their regular strategy).

Cruel.
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Re: Xeno wars
70. post - 2011.01.17. 20:50:01 (Reply to post #67 of Cruel01.)
*** Removed to do a consolidated post below ***
This post was modified by Viridel at 2011.01.17. 21:20:49
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Re: Xeno wars
71. post - 2011.01.17. 20:59:27 (Reply to post #68 of Sbart.)
Quote: Sbart - 2011.01.17. 19:19:00
Quote: Cruel01 - 2011.01.17. 16:30:46
I fully disagree with the second manacon for the event. If this is done, you will be automatically giving the victory for whoever has manacon lvl 30 or over. Therefore, it won't be an event.
As I have already said, compromise is required! I am aware that if I want to stay in the top 10, I will need to evolve in lvl much faster than what I would like to. This is my compromise and I am thinking if it is worth. Just giving builders the option not to change anything in their strategy and still come up with an easy victory makes no sense to me.

Cruel.


I see how having Mana-con 30+ will give you an advantage in the top 10 Building, but it is the same kind of advantage you would get in the Top 10 Fights from having a high Elementary Fusion/Shape reality (extra AP/DP) or higher stats (so that you win more fights).

Having said that, I still think that the easiest way is to either have it as proposed or removing Mana-con from the event.

Why keep it as proposed? The original proposal stated that you could get 1 Building point/day from Building with SE and 1/day building with Mana-con. This is no longer the case, since we will be able to build as many times as we want from SE/day (and get 1 Build point per X SE).
So if I have the potential to build 50000SE with Mana-con and one Build point costs 5000 SE, I could build 10 times in the Event and use my Mana-con in a Clan building. Using Mana-con in the Event only gives me 1 more Build point, so why use it?

Question: I will have to use X SE to get 1 Build point. Does my Building skill affect this amount?


In other words - players that have invested in Magic and ManCon get NO benefit in the event (over someone with ManaCon L1), while players that have invested in EleFus / SpecMan / ExHunt skills will get more APs, and make more off each one - meaning they have more SE to contribute... And this makes sense in the BUILDING half, how exactly?
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Re: Xeno wars
72. post - 2011.01.17. 21:12:11
Quote: Viridel - 2011.01.17. 20:50:01

Beyond that, it's completely illogical to make the Clan suffer because the players want to participate in the event. There is no Clan penalty of players want to participate in the Attacking side - so why penalize a Clan on the building side? There is NO good reasoning behind that!

The reasoning lies in the fact that if duelers want to win the event, they will have to compromise by getting less SE/XP than their average. Builders should compromise also. What you are suggesting is that builders should have an automatic win, with absolutely no cost in terms of strategy. This is what seems illogical to me.
My suggestion (on post 69) would still give builders an edge, but at a cost.

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Re: Xeno wars
73. post - 2011.01.17. 21:23:32
Quote: Cruel01 - 2011.01.17. 16:30:46
I fully disagree with the second manacon for the event. If this is done, you will be automatically giving the victory for whoever has manacon lvl 30 or over. Therefore, it won't be an event.
As I have already said, compromise is required! I am aware that if I want to stay in the top 10, I will need to evolve in lvl much faster than what I would like to. This is my compromise and I am thinking if it is worth. Just giving builders the option not to change anything in their strategy and still come up with an easy victory makes no sense to me.

Cruel.


You're missing the point - if players are ManaCon L50, they have earned that right to be on the top list by spending to achieve that skill maximum. It's not difficult to get to. Saying that they should be restricted in any way is like saying that every duel based character should be capped at 200 Attribute points.

Beyond that, it's completely illogical to make the Clan suffer because the players want to participate in the event. There is no Clan penalty of players want to participate in the Attacking side - so why penalize a Clan on the Building side? There is NO good reasoning behind that!

In summary, winning the event will require a sacrifice from most people (only the very well balanced and strong players might be able to win just by keeping their regular strategy).


How exactly are the attacking-based players making a sacrifice? They will be collecting SE for wins and collecting potions after 12 wins.

What it comes down to is that the Attacking-Based players should NOT have anything close to an equal opportunity to compete on the Building side, in the same way as a Clan-Based player will not have anything close to an equal opportunity on the Attacking side. Fair is fair - too many events are geared exclusively towards Attackers - Builders are FINALLY getting their chance to participate to their full potential (in theory) - and that wants to be stripped away too.

The reasoning lies in the fact that if duelers want to win the event, they will have to compromise by getting less SE/XP than their average.


And you know this, how exactly? In the Zankwad event, the Goblin battles were more profitable on average than standard duels - by a fair amount.

My suggestion (on post 69) would still give builders an edge, but at a cost.


That is incorrect. There is no "cost" to the player. The cost is to the Clan. So I repeat my point above:
"There is no Clan penalty of players want to participate in the Attacking side - so why penalize a Clan on the Building side?"
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Re: Xeno wars
74. post - 2011.01.17. 21:49:51
I know you are going to win the building competition if you want to. As I know I'm going to win the fighting competition if I want to.
Why are you going to win? Because nobody will be able to compete with a guy with 50 manacon and lots of SP (considering the rule is changed and you don't make only one point). And what is the cost for you/your clan? You will have to "waste" your manacon in the event. The question is: are you willing to sacrifice the building in your clan for the event?
And why am I going to win? Because I will win all my fights and I can simply dump my 800 AP in the event. What is the cost for me? I will probably make 500 SE/21 XP instead of my current 900 SE/16 XP dueling. The question is: am I willing to sacrifice my strategy to win this event?
As I said, whoever is willing to compromise will win the event.

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Re: Xeno wars
75. post - 2011.01.17. 22:13:05 (Reply to post #74 of Cruel01.)
Quote: Cruel01 - 2011.01.17. 21:49:51
I know you are going to win the building competition if you want to. As I know I'm going to win the fighting competition if I want to.
Why are you going to win? Because nobody will be able to compete with a guy with 50 manacon and lots of SP

How about every other player with ManaCon L50, and lots of spell points? That's like saying someone will win the Attacking event because they have Attack of 100, and nobody else does. Except that probably 90% of the players over L30 have 100+, and even if they don't, they can still develop the attribute.

And what is the cost for you/your clan? You will have to "waste" your manacon in the event. The question is: are you willing to sacrifice the building in your clan for the event?

Again - That's not a COST to the player!!! It's a COST to the Clan!!! Again:
"There is no Clan penalty of players want to participate in the Attacking side - so why penalize a Clan on the Building side?"

If you can't answer that, you have no argument on this part of the discussion.

And why am I going to win? Because I will win all my fights and I can simply dump my 800 AP in the event. What is the cost for me? I will probably make 500 SE/21 XP instead of my current 900 SE/16 XP dueling. The question is: am I willing to sacrifice my strategy to win this event?
As I said, whoever is willing to compromise will win the event.


And these numbers come from.......... Where exactly? Personally, I think the numbers are 2000 SE/10 XP. Can you prove me any more or less correct than your numbers? Unless you can, your argument once more, holds absolutely no weight.
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Re: Xeno wars
76. post - 2011.01.17. 22:14:16 (Reply to post #73 of Viridel.)
Quote: Viridel - 2011.01.17. 21:23:32
There is no Clan penalty of players want to participate in the Attacking side


Well there is actually. If a player puts all his AP's into the event then he/she can not take action in clans wars and help them win these wars.
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popularCruel01Male

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Re: Xeno wars
77. post - 2011.01.17. 22:32:06 (Reply to post #75 of Viridel.)
How about every other player with ManaCon L50, and lots of spell points? That's like saying someone will win the Attacking event because they have Attack of 100, and nobody else does. Except that probably 90% of the players over L30 have 100+, and even if they don't, they can still develop the attribute.

When I say "you", I am referring to all builders. All players in the top 10 list for building will have L50 manacon. And don't get me wrong. This is absolutely fair.

Again - That's not a COST to the player!!! It's a COST to the Clan!!! Again:
"There is no Clan penalty of players want to participate in the Attacking side - so why penalize a Clan on the Building side?"

If you can't answer that, you have no argument on this part of the discussion.

It doesn't matter if it is a cost for the player or the clan. What matters is that there will be a cost. What you are suggesting, on the other hand, is absolutely cost free. You want to win an event by doing nothing more than what you would do even if there was no event. What is the point in having an event then?!

And these numbers come from.......... Where exactly? Personally, I think the numbers are 2000 SE/10 XP. Can you prove me any more or less correct than your numbers? Unless you can, your argument once more, holds absolutely no weight.

I didn't understand your point here. It doesn't matter though. As long as you understand that duelers will be forced to reduce their SE/XP ratio and this is a sacrifice in terms of strategy to us.

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Re: Xeno wars
78. post - 2011.01.18. 00:49:47 (Reply to post #76 of petel87.)
Quote: petel87 - 2011.01.17. 22:14:16
Quote: Viridel - 2011.01.17. 21:23:32
There is no Clan penalty of players want to participate in the Attacking side


Well there is actually. If a player puts all his AP's into the event then he/she can not take action in clans wars and help them win these wars.


Ummm, APs aren't used in wars - and your example is beyond ludicrous anyway.
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Re: Xeno wars
79. post - 2011.01.18. 00:57:21 (Reply to post #77 of Cruel01.)
Quote: Cruel01 - 2011.01.17. 22:32:06
How about every other player with ManaCon L50, and lots of spell points? That's like saying someone will win the Attacking event because they have Attack of 100, and nobody else does. Except that probably 90% of the players over L30 have 100+, and even if they don't, they can still develop the attribute.

When I say "you", I am referring to all builders. All players in the top 10 list for building will have L50 manacon. And don't get me wrong. This is absolutely fair.

Exactly - it's absolutely fair. Players who have invested in the skill will reap the rewards. Thank you for supporting my point.

Again - That's not a COST to the player!!! It's a COST to the Clan!!! Again:
"There is no Clan penalty of players want to participate in the Attacking side - so why penalize a Clan on the Building side?"

If you can't answer that, you have no argument on this part of the discussion.

It doesn't matter if it is a cost for the player or the clan. What matters is that there will be a cost. What you are suggesting, on the other hand, is absolutely cost free. You want to win an event by doing nothing more than what you would do even if there was no event. What is the point in having an event then?!

So attackers that do nothing different than they would normally do - attack. But you want builders to do something that they wouldn't usually do - sacrifice the clan for their personal benefit...

Sorry, I'm not seeing where your logic is coming from.

Also, there will be a cost. You actually think that the Top10 is going to be won by ManaCon alone? It's SE that is going to win that battle. So the Building event still costs SE... What REALLY does the Attacking event COST? Nothing, or close to it.

And these numbers come from.......... Where exactly? Personally, I think the numbers are 2000 SE/10 XP. Can you prove me any more or less correct than your numbers? Unless you can, your argument once more, holds absolutely no weight.

I didn't understand your point here. It doesn't matter though. As long as you understand that duelers will be forced to reduce their SE/XP ratio and this is a sacrifice in terms of strategy to us.

The point is that you're making s#it up to support a point that you could be 100% wrong on. Where is your proof that your SE revenue will go down and/or your XP cost will go up???
This post was modified by Viridel at 2011.01.18. 01:06:41
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hatedpetel87

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Re: Xeno wars
80. post - 2011.01.18. 01:13:49 (Reply to post #78 of Viridel.)
Quote: Viridel - 2011.01.18. 00:49:47
Quote: petel87 - 2011.01.17. 22:14:16
Quote: Viridel - 2011.01.17. 21:23:32
There is no Clan penalty of players want to participate in the Attacking side


Well there is actually. If a player puts all his AP's into the event then he/she can not take action in clans wars and help them win these wars.


Ummm, APs aren't used in wars - and your example is beyond ludicrous anyway.


Sorry, meant DP's.
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