I think the point here is that there is a cost involved in using Duel points to attack the Xenos, since it will be like attacking a player with 0 SE (so you get some if you have Energy Harness).

And with the change to the Building part (you can build for SE as many times as you like), Mana-construction (if it is once/day for 1 Build point) is going to meaningless. If it is 1 Build point per X SE built, then it would make more sense, and there would definitely be a choice where to use it (Event or Clan building).



Attackers (I suppose this means duelers) would sacrifice something: Every DP they spend on the event will get them less SE than their normal attacks would. Sure, using Manacon would be to sacrifice building in your clan, but the Dueler would also get less SE to build with.
In the end both types of players would have to make a choice: Should I participate in the event and get a reward that I think is better than the sacrifice I make, or should I just skip it?

It would be interesting to hear how the discussion is on the Hungarian forum and how the developers see on it.

Idézet: Sbart - 2011.01.18. 00:46:59

Can we have an Admin confirm this once and for all? Will these be 0 SE Duels, or like the Zankwad Goblins, will there be a pre-EnHarness value?

I am not making it up. It is a mathematical fact. And this is what makes duelers stronger than everybody else (in their level). They sacrifice XP for SE.

From the first post of the topic:

Idézet: Cruel01 - 2011.01.18. 01:22:05

Ok, well, if that is still the case - it does change things somewhat... I still don't think that punishing the Clan is the solution though.

i think no event can give the same benefits to everyone, there will always be injustice and exceptions. in this event manacon will be used. in another map finding (players with less then level 5 academy had no map finding skill), in another the abilities will be more important. this list is endless.
the thing is we choose and live with our choices.

Actually, I just had an idea that could work really well... I think...

Once you hit ManaCon L30, you can use ManaCon twice a day - once in the "normal" way (Clan Building), and once in the event. However, for the event, it takes SE to trigger (AND Spell Points to use). The trigger cost is Level*100, and the SE used in this way does NOT count towards your Luck skill. If you don't want to use ManaCon in this way, or if you want to Build more than once a day, the SE spent towards Building DOES count towards your Luck skill.

As for the Event:
SE Building (NOT including ManaCon Trigger): Level*200 = 1 Point
ManaCon Building (NOT utilizing the Trigger SE): Level*400 = 1 Point

So you still get all the benefit of whatever you have invested into ManaCon, but now there is a cost to do so. Or, you can choose not to utilize it (especially if you are under L30), and receive full benefit for the SE spent towards Luck - but you won't get as many Build Points. However, you CAN blitz the event to keep pace with the ManaCon Leaders who may not wish to make such sacrifices.

In my personal situation, Level 62, ManaBuild of (approx) 80,000 (MC L50, of course):
A ManaCon trigger costs 6200 SE, and the 80,000 ManaBuild converts to 3.225 Points (80,000 / 400 / 62)
I would need to spend a total of 40,000 SE to receive that same 3.225 Points - and I would receive Luck based on that 40k
If I used ManaCon AND the 40,000, I would receive 5.95 Points (3.225 from ManaCon, 2.73 from the 40k minus the Trigger amount).

So let's use 6 points as the daily viable amount for the middle prize. A Level 60 "Dueler" (no ManaCon) would need to spend 72000 SE to keep pace (of which, 100% would also go towards Luck). Over the course of the event, this is more expensive than building up L50 ManaCon, however, it is a LOT more cost-effective for a pure Dueler to not put SE in Skills they don't want to utilize (plus they get Luck, which they wouldn't if they were improving Skills). So there's the balance - Someone investing in Magic & ManaCon do receive the benefit here, but it's not astronomically more than is viable for non-Builder characters to keep pace.

A lot of math here... But inverse problem solving is what I am good at - so here you go. Mods / Admins - Have at'er!

Idézet: stekkos - 2011.01.12. 05:44:54

Sorry for reposting my own post but it seems noone has really consider how simple this whole mess it would be if the above suggestion was applied. This was what i imagined the event to be. Reward: a choice of relics. Effort: as much dp or ap a player whants to put in. No point system. No xp or se or potions from it. You fight for a unique item. You keep fighting to get a stronger one. You do not seem to care about the whole issue, you stay away.

So i hunt and duel as normal but i might throw a few ap/dp to get at least the basic level of the item. Or i go all out and dedicate the resources to get the most powerfull reward. I will not get the se i would if hunting or dueling but the reward would more than compensate, especially if you are one of the few that have the max reward.

Bottom line: You have an event that becomes a part of the game not one that replaces the rest of the game for a month and then all go back to normal.

Idézet: Viridel - 2011.01.18. 07:43:01

Or, in plain English, you're good at creating problems?

Idézet: ImLittleJon - 2011.01.18. 14:45:57
Well, I think that has been more than proven by now

But at least I can create a solution for something that is obviously screwed up...

Idézet: stekkos - 2011.01.18. 08:16:47

Actually, this was addressed almost word-for-word previously by Miklos. He said they wanted to run Zankwad that way, but people were mad that they weren't receiving anything along the way, and that the relics would have to be so astronomically powerful to make the event worth it that the balance of the game would be at risk.

Idézet: Viridel - 2011.01.18. 07:43:01

I don't entirely understand all the math involved here, but it certainly seems to address the complaints by all sides. As a building-based-player myself, it is very important to me that my character get a fair opportunity to participate in these events. The Map one worked well enough; aside from my displeasure about being trapped on a lousy team through no fault of my own; but the Zarknod was a complete waste of time and thought. I was reading intently through the Suggestions thread, and really liked where this was supposed to go. Unfortunately it has fallen far short of what I was hoping for, and anyone can easily see that it is yet another event geared towards offensive players. It really upsets me when Administrators are saying that I don't play the game properly. I have two Lady of Alvariel medals to prove that I am playing just fine; and the Administration needs to accept the fact that different players have different goals for their characters, and as long as they are not cheating, all are acceptable, and all need to be accommodated in the game events.

At least Viridel is trying; but I'm not seeing much out of the ones who should be most interested in getting things right. This is very disappointing.

I see one of the main point is still the role of manaconstruction so I will try to reflect on this:

- Allowing manacon for both the clan and for the event. This is quite pointless, then everyone will click it for the event, there is no tactics, thinking, anything, just an automated action. From this, even Sbart's suggestion of entirely removing manacon is better. As I said, if you think your clan deserves manacon more, then use it for the clan, and build from SE. You have the option. I agree Viridiel that this is a cost to your clan, and not to you. And this is exactly the point. You have to decide: what is more important, your advancement or the clans? Attacking for DP has its drawback as well, attacking for AP does not have any yet (but I will think about this).

- You are asking to give advantage to those who have a higher manacon, or greater magic. I was thinking on how to achieve this. As I said, we cant do this with magic, because the higher a players level, the higher is his magic and it would be pretty difficult to put on a relative formulae on this. But with manacon, we can do that if your manacon is less than maximum, then it counts less. So if your manacon is only half of maximum value, it counts 0.5. If its higher than the basic max, then it counts a bit more than 1. Same with what Sbart said, we can do this for the building skill as well. So this way, devoted builders will be rewarded better, as you asked for.

Please also do not forget something very important. Being in the top of these competitions will yield you a medal with a small bonus, but to get the main reward, you have to achieve a specified amount of building which you will be able to get even without manacon.

Other suggestions:
Choosing between either to build or fight sounds a good idea first, but it would be too dangerous - it can easily happen that too few player chooses an option and then the event fails because of this.


Stekkos, I responded to this post earlier, the problem was I could not figure out a relic which could worth hundreds of APts. Actually, it would have been either the relic worth it, and then everyone spends all his ap on the event. Or it doesnt, and then no one does. AP can be calclulated to SE, as the relics power would be calculated as well, and it would be easy to compare.

I am actually wondering about this. Isn't there a drawback to attacking with AP (no Trapping means less SE/Hunt)? And will we actually attack with DP? How does the event work? Is it like Zarknod and there is a battle? If so, then we will be limited by our Stats (HP mainly) in how many attacks we can make per day, not if we have AP/DP or not.

So basically what I am asking is how does the Battle part of the event work? This actually influences the Building part, since we are trying to figure out if they are balanced against each other.

I support this 100%


Attacking with AP has a cost already.
If you a dedicated hunter, you will lose your 8% trapping and the squeezes. You will also lose a lot of battles. probably hunters will not use AP, preferring the DPs.
If you are a dedicated dueler, you won't lose many battles, but you will be forced to hunt, which means less SE/XP.

Cruel.

Idézet: Cruel01 - 2011.01.19. 13:18:31

Actually, things have changed a bit compared to what was posted by Miklos here. You will be able to use trapping in the event.

Idézet: quint - 2011.01.19. 13:30:50

Which is why it would be nice to actually get an update on how things are going to work. We can discussing things here all day, but if we don't get any information, all we can do is speculate.

This thing about trapping seems to be the only update that wasn't published here, I don't see any other news on the Hungarian forums either.

when will xeno chopping begin?

Idézet: Sbart - 2011.01.19. 11:54:52

As the current plan, you do have the chance to capture creatures when you attack for AP! (The idea is that you capture pets which wandered away from fallen doomlords). Yes, there will be a battle, like when you do an epic fight. And yes, you will take damage - so your HP will be a kinda limit.

Baraty is progressing with the programming well, but I am updating with the news we agree here on the forum. On the manacon/building issue, we decided to use this method: when you build, you get building points equal to your manacon or building skill. Of course, this way you do not need 40 building points for maximum reward, but something like 1600.
There is a good chance that the event can begin on next week.