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Name of topic: Complaints on players
irritatingBash Chelik

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Re: Complaints on players
261. post - 2010.12.23. 13:30:27 (Reply to post #250 of ImLittleJon.)
i didn`t said we stop chating when she left, did i?
besides, after all that time one could say she would never cheat
even if she could, of course she could pretend all that time(read lie)
but that is unlikely since i tried to catch her
she could lied for example few times
but several months?pffft
although quite stuborn sometimes(bash thought to eat piggy for good at those times)
she is good person
Score: 4
irritatingBash Chelik

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Re: Complaints on players
262. post - 2010.12.23. 13:37:42 (Reply to post #252 of petel87.)
lets hear that theory, petel, or shut up and leave my clan alone
the reason she left is because carpacio members are not so talkative as she would like
besides, only few members of carpacio remain from that time including me
and those are NOT people who play doomlord that way, because we like game as it is
others come and go, and by my humble opinion none of them didn`t even thought to cheat
Score: 5
much likedMiklosMale
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Re: Complaints on players
263. post - 2010.12.24. 00:19:12
In such games, there are 3 main ways of cheating:

1.) Finding a program bug and exploiting it. Fortunately, our programmer, Baraty is pretty good on this side, bugs are very rare and are quickly corrected. Also we log most things, so many events can be backtracked. So actually there were only 2 times in DL's history (on the original servers) when someone found a serious bug and started cheating with it, both times they were catched and banned permanently.

2.) Using multiple characters to achieve advantage. This is a huge weakness of such games, where you can start free characters very easily. Fortunately, we were pretty prepared for this from the start. We not only have logs which track specifically activities like this, but we have two sophisticated programs which analyze these log files, collect data, and make suggestions to the GM on actions against players who do this. We catched and banned most people who tried to abuse this seriously.

3.) Using "third party programs" ie. scripts, to automate game mechanics, and collect data to make things easier. This is the hardest to catch. We cannot install spying programs on your computer to see what programs you are running. We can only log what you are doing while you play, and try to determine if this is a human player, or some automated script. Even if it is a script, there are many ways to make it so smart so its almost impossible to catch with automated detection programs. The only reliable way is to parse through all logs manually and decide if there is scripting or not. Some scripts are pretty harmless, like tracking clan members build total, or putting out hotkeys. But there are means ones, which click duel every 10 seconds on the same player for an hour, or download the entire toplist once every few hours, analyze the data, and make suggestion which player is hunting and should be attacked. Preventing all these without also hindering honest players is pretty difficult, if not impossible. I discussed with Baraty what we can do in the future to automatize the detection of such scripts. But meanwhile, dont forget, we can always check logs manually - if someone overabuse this, and we get complaints, we will spend the time and look through all the logs.
Score: 5
popularCruel01Male

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Re: Complaints on players
264. post - 2010.12.24. 01:46:01
As Miklos said, it is very hard to catch "third party programs" cheating.
But in this particular case, it seems very obvious to me. To have that 1 second precision (and considering it happened several times, because we can't really discard luck once in a while), the person is probably just trying to attack non-stop until it is possible. My guess is that a software like the "autoclick" [link removed] is being used. It is a very basic program that simply hits a buttom constantly.

The problem is that it is very hard to catch someone because nothing stops the person from actually clicking in the duel buttom every second.

Edit: You know what? I was thinking a little more about the matter and isn't easy to know when the person will have more than 15% life just by knowing their current life and constitution? Maybe it won't be possible to have 1 second precision, but a 10 second precision is more than enough for any attacker to manually click in the duel buttom non-stop.

Cruel.

Edit: Kethios
Reason: Won't allow to post scripts.
This post was modified by Kethios at 2010.12.25. 08:09:35
Score: 5
much likedquint

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Re: Complaints on players
265. post - 2010.12.24. 07:58:18 (Reply to post #264 of Cruel01.)
Quote: Cruel01 - 2010.12.24. 01:46:01
Edit: You know what? I was thinking a little more about the matter and isn't easy to know when the person will have more than 15% life just by knowing their current life and constitution? Maybe it won't be possible to have 1 second precision, but a 10 second precision is more than enough for any attacker to manually click in the duel buttom non-stop.

Cruel.

That is exactly what I usually do when I want to attack someone and i see him below 15%. I just calculate the time when he should come out of safety (to the minute) and around that time, I try hitting him repeatedly by copying his name into the attack box and clicking the button. It doesn't take a lot of clicks when you know to the minute when he'll come out of safety. But that doesn't always work, sometimes I'm too late, someone has already hit him, other times it fails because the target uses a healing potion then attacks the epic monster or changes equipment first and gets below 15% for a long time again. You can't be prepared for such unexpected events. The whole issue here was triggered by one player seemingly being aware of other people's otherwise unpredictable actions. Of course, it cannot be exluded that there is a logical explanation to this, we'll just have to wait and see if it gets sorted out or not.
Doomlord wiki: http://doomlord.wikidot.com


I need contribution to the list of adventures from anyone who's willing to share information with others. Please help me expand this list.
Score: 5.40
much likedLydonB

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Re: Complaints on players
266. post - 2010.12.24. 09:46:56
Cruel, did you really feel the need to post the name and link to the script page.

Now every single player has the required tool to cheat...
This post was modified by LydonB at 2010.12.24. 09:47:18
Score: 5
much likedCiphasMale

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Re: Complaints on players
267. post - 2010.12.24. 10:14:32
Let me tell you guys why i don"t want to cheat and why i hope that mspiggy did not cheat :

- if i cheat I will soon become very powerful ( that is if i will be able to cheat and not get baned lol ) and then i will be wining every fight and the game will become boring for me and in the end i will either become inactive or quit .

It happen to me before - i am a competitive player and when i become to powerful in a game or my alliance is the most powerful i usually stop playing because i lose interest .

The best and fun periods in any game for me are the ones when i fight for to survive and to become the best ... that is why cheating is fun just in the first 10 minutes after that is Boring .

Now at this moment i can"t beat Mspiggy , she attacks me from time to time and in about 99% she wins the fights so i admire her as a player and hope to become like her -> she is my Doomlord hero so its a goal to me to become powerful and beat her or at least improve that statistic but if she cheats then all my admiration for her skills was for nothing ...
Score: 5
much likedLydonB

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Re: Complaints on players
268. post - 2010.12.24. 11:02:29
Ciphas, not everyone has the same mindset.

Some cheat for bragging rights, others cheat in order to ruin the fun of others.

Whilst I admire your sense of honesty; you are being naive.
Score: 5
averageardentFemale

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Re: Complaints on players
269. post - 2010.12.24. 12:35:41
Since ppl on this forum and some players in W2 are only good at making threats and shouting out things based on 0 logic, miscalculated formulas ( YES, i am especially accusing the mighty Viridel who is everywhere on the forum and i only see misinformation coming out of his keyboard all day long, 90% of the posts ), i myself will start making threats!

If MsPiggy is banned for some invented reason, just to "stop the mob from rioting" just because THEY PAY and Piggy doesn't, i will personally delete my account and will take along with me as many ppl as i can! I am one of the more generous payers, doubt there are too many who buy 40 Euro AS worth per month ... I am not saying this to brag, just saying it to make a point! Don't ban Piggy just because everyone is complaining about it ( DL developers have done this in the past, a fair example would be changing the script for the last Map event after 15 days ). If you do ban him, because he is such a popular case that everybody is following closely, PLEASE bring some proof along, i am sure LOADS of players would like to see it, some to enjoy and some to be said about it......

I know all those Piggy "lovers" will now flame me but than again, it is normal for players to be envious about other players who are more skilled at playing the game, or have more time or financial resources than you! I myself have been accused of using a "clicker" just because i was attacking the same 5 players at reset time ( 4:03 AM game time ) to get them into my T. Chamber ( and guess what, it was Viridel and his clan that whined about it AGAIN ).

Don't BAN Piggy just because he is better than most of us at this game, you should be proud he proved your game is one of the few that can be played FOR FREE and still stay competitive!
it figures ....
Score: 6.50
popularCruel01Male

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Re: Complaints on players
270. post - 2010.12.24. 16:14:51
@quint
The equipment change definitely makes the human click approach harder...

@Lydon
Anyone interested in cheating will have access to dozens of softwares capable of supporting them. Once upon a time, I used to be a GM in a similar game and I was surprised by what some tools were capable of doing. And it was always a player who showed the software to us. I just named one very basic and well known tool. All cheaters know this one.

Cruel.
Score: 5
averageBoar

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Re: Complaints on players
271. post - 2010.12.24. 17:11:42 (Reply to post #220 of Miklos.)
Quote: Miklos - 2010.12.22. 17:01:44
Quote: Valkyrie - 2010.12.20. 21:04:25
Illuvatar is exploiting some sort of bug, please fix it pronto!


This wasn't an exploit, just a bug caused by the last patch, and the programmer already corrected it, thank you for the notice.

About MsPiggy. We took very seriously the complaints, and monitored and logged every action for the past 2 months. After careful examination and analyzation of this data, we decided to suspend this character temporarily. Further investigation will decide if this suspension will become permanent.


" And justice for all..."

I don't understand you, dear forum members. There is a few pages of flame-war here for nothing. The post above contains everything. I know the stuff well enough to say: they are going to investigate precisely. Why the flames then? Wait until they share the outcome here.
Score: 8.75
much likedImLittleJon

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Re: Complaints on players
272. post - 2010.12.24. 17:19:15 (Reply to post #269 of ardent.)
Quote: ardent - 2010.12.24. 12:35:41
Don't BAN Piggy just because he is better than most of us at this game, you should be proud he proved your game is one of the few that can be played FOR FREE and still stay competitive!


If you're going to defend MsPiggy, please defend her against the actual accusation. How can she consistently hit people within a second or two of coming out of safety using unpredictable means without cheating? So far, none of her defenders have put forward any explanation for that.
Score: 7.50
much likedquint

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Re: Complaints on players
273. post - 2010.12.24. 18:28:51 (Reply to post #270 of Cruel01.)
Quote: Cruel01 - 2010.12.24. 16:14:51
@quint
The equipment change definitely makes the human click approach harder...

Those three dots add a nuance of sarcasm to what you wrote, but to make myself clear, I was referring to changing an equipment which gives considerable amount of constitution to the lowest level leather whatevers with no constitution bonus, thus coming out of safety ahead of time, then going unconscious by hitting the epic and putting on the normal equipment again.
Doomlord wiki: http://doomlord.wikidot.com


I need contribution to the list of adventures from anyone who's willing to share information with others. Please help me expand this list.
Score: 5.40
much likedmanunkind

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Re: Complaints on players
274. post - 2010.12.24. 18:46:08
i know MsPiggy from another game. we met as competitors. no doubt she's aggressive and unapologetic about it, but she's also always civilized. she recruited me for doomlord well after the game had begun, so i got a late start. she gave me some tips about how to uliitize the information legally available to all. despite not methodically following her advice, i've accidentally become one of the more successful duelers. it's no surprise to me to see her excel, nor is it a surprise to me that her new competitors question how she does it, as i once did. i'm not aware of any cheating on her part - merely out-smarting and disciplined play. if there's no evidence of wrongdoing, the suspension needs to be lifted.
Score: 6.50
popularCruel01Male

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Re: Complaints on players
275. post - 2010.12.24. 19:08:27
quint,
I was agreeing with you. The equipment change, if made correctly, would make it much harder for the attacker to know the exact time to attack.

Cruel.
Score: 5
much likedstekkos

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Re: Complaints on players
276. post - 2010.12.24. 19:26:39
I do not understand the reason this goes on. If they already suspended her it means they found something suspicious. Thus it seems all you that complained about it have now proof of some action taken. If she will be banned i am sure they will provide a legitimate reason. If they do not it means all of you were wrong, unless piggy is the Master of cheating without a trace. So until a final desicion is taken, this debate is at best waste of posts.
This post was modified by stekkos at 2010.12.24. 19:27:09
Score: 8.33
irritatingInv_

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Re: Complaints on players
277. post - 2010.12.24. 20:03:39 (Reply to post #276 of stekkos.)
Quote: stekkos - 2010.12.24. 19:26:39
I do not understand the reason this goes on. If they already suspended her it means they found something suspicious. Thus it seems all you that complained about it have now proof of some action taken. If she will be banned i am sure they will provide a legitimate reason. If they do not it means all of you were wrong, unless piggy is the Master of cheating without a trace. So until a final desicion is taken, this debate is at best waste of posts.


I'm just trying to make sure that IF they ban him it's because they really found something and not just to make paying customers happy. Also it would be nice if they could pass judgment soon and not in 2 months
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
Score: 5
much likedstekkos

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Re: Complaints on players
278. post - 2010.12.24. 20:21:13
They never did something as a favor to paying customers, they would have just banned her from start to get rid of the complains if that was the case
Score: 5
much likedquint

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Re: Complaints on players
279. post - 2010.12.24. 21:27:49 (Reply to post #275 of Cruel01.)
Quote: Cruel01 - 2010.12.24. 19:08:27
quint,
I was agreeing with you. The equipment change, if made correctly, would make it much harder for the attacker to know the exact time to attack.

Cruel.

Oops, sorry about that. I misinterpreted it.
Doomlord wiki: http://doomlord.wikidot.com


I need contribution to the list of adventures from anyone who's willing to share information with others. Please help me expand this list.
Score: 7.20
popularDakaanMale

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Re: Complaints on players
280. post - 2010.12.25. 16:42:47 (Reply to post #276 of stekkos.)
Quote: ardent - 2010.12.24. 12:35:41
Since ppl on this forum and some players in W2 are only good at making threats and shouting out things based on 0 logic, miscalculated formulas ( YES, i am especially accusing the mighty Viridel who is everywhere on the forum and i only see misinformation coming out of his keyboard all day long, 90% of the posts ), i myself will start making threats!

If MsPiggy is banned for some invented reason, just to "stop the mob from rioting" just because THEY PAY and Piggy doesn't, i will personally delete my account and will take along with me as many ppl as i can! I am one of the more generous payers, doubt there are too many who buy 40 Euro AS worth per month ... I am not saying this to brag, just saying it to make a point! Don't ban Piggy just because everyone is complaining about it ( DL developers have done this in the past, a fair example would be changing the script for the last Map event after 15 days ). If you do ban him, because he is such a popular case that everybody is following closely, PLEASE bring some proof along, i am sure LOADS of players would like to see it, some to enjoy and some to be said about it......

I know all those Piggy "lovers" will now flame me but than again, it is normal for players to be envious about other players who are more skilled at playing the game, or have more time or financial resources than you! I myself have been accused of using a "clicker" just because i was attacking the same 5 players at reset time ( 4:03 AM game time ) to get them into my T. Chamber ( and guess what, it was Viridel and his clan that whined about it AGAIN ).

Don't BAN Piggy just because he is better than most of us at this game, you should be proud he proved your game is one of the few that can be played FOR FREE and still stay competitive!


Ardent i'm sure nobody is going to ban MsPiggy without any reason just to make people happy. The idea is that allot of players complained and they did take action. If he/she got suspended means that something doesn't add up about that account but the outcome might be cheating or not cheating.
I was one of the attacked players by you but i never said that you cheat for this even though it was early in the morning for you (since we are from the same country).
Anyway i earned my first place in top by actually playing every day since the game started. Chipas was and is one of the best looters by doing the same thing as me and if i look at the tops most of the top players are. I don't like to point and i'm not a hater but i certainly can't find any humanly way a player can be that good as Piggy.
Believe what you want but i have the most respect for you as a player since you managed to stick close to me in Top10 and give me a hard time when i started to get bored.

Quote: stekkos - 2010.12.24. 19:26:39
I do not understand the reason this goes on. If they already suspended her it means they found something suspicious. Thus it seems all you that complained about it have now proof of some action taken. If she will be banned i am sure they will provide a legitimate reason. If they do not it means all of you were wrong, unless piggy is the Master of cheating without a trace. So until a final desicion is taken, this debate is at best waste of posts.


I agree with you stekkos and i'm out of here for a while. I really can't wait to see the decision. If she was clean then good play Piggy, if not then i guess that's that.
Score: 7.50